Ep 02: "Paint a Picture" | WCC Podcast
This week, we’re excited to launch the second episode of the World Coffee Championships Podcast.
“Paint a Picture” traces the history and evolution of the World Latte Art Championship through the medium itself, from early etchings to the innovative realistic pours that grace the competition’s stage today. Along the way, co-host Rie Moustakis leads us through stories about the role of the rules, the value of art, and family dynamics through interviews with Carl Sara, Daniel Acosta Busch, and Um Paul.
Special Thanks to Our Series Sponsor, Victoria Arduino
This series of the WCC Podcast is brought to you by Victoria Arduino. Born in the early twentieth century amid social and cultural transformation, Victoria Arduino broke with tradition and focused on progress, a mission it carries forward today. Victoria Arduino advances coffee knowledge and innovates across design, technology, and performance to produce machines that nurture coffee professionals' passion for espresso excellence. For more information, visit victoriaarduino.com. Victoria Arduino: Inspired by your passion.
Special Thanks to Our Episode Sponsor, URNEX
This episode of the WCC Podcast was made possible with support from Urnex. Even the slightest unwelcome scent or taste of bitterness can ruin a delicious coffee. Whether you have a dirty grinder, a grimy group head, or a soiled steam wand, Urnex has a product that can remove the buildup of oils, fats, and minerals that occurs from the regular preparation of coffee beverages in cafés and at home. Learn more about Urnex and its new line of biodegradable cleaners by visiting Urnex.com.
We’d like to thank Rie Moustakis, our co-host for this episode, and our interviewees for their time in sharing their stories about the World Latte Art Championship, in order of appearance: Carl Sara, Daniel Acosta Busch, and Um Paul. Thanks, too, to Madbirder for the recording of the Quetzal bird and to Um Paul for letting us use his tracks to help illustrate his story.
For a full list of those who helped across the entire series, a year-long effort, click here. Series 01 of the World Coffee Championships Podcast was produced by James Harper of Filter Productions for the Specialty Coffee Association.
Full Episode Transcript
James Harper: Welcome back to the World Coffee Championships Podcast series. And today we are talking about latte art, and I'm joined by someone very special.
Rie Moustakis: Aww...
James Harper: Who are you?
Rie Moustakis: Hi, I'm Rie Moustakis.
James Harper: Tell me a little bit more about your story.
Rie Moustakis: Um, so, been in coffee about 15 years, mainly as a barista trainer. But it was in 2014, I became the Australian Latte Art Champion, and I represented Australia in the Worlds and came fourth that year.
James Harper: Cool. What was the design you made that got you to the finals?
Rie Moustakis: So I poured a quetzal, which is a bird usually found in the rainforest of Guatemala. And it sounds a little bit like this.
[Recording of a Quetzal, which is described as “deep, smooth, slurred notes in simple patterns: keow keow kowee, often strikingly melodious” by birdsoftheworld.org]
James Harper: What does it look like?
Rie Moustakis: Uh, so it was a very pretty bird, very colorful with a long tail. In some parts of Central America, coffee trees have grown in wet rainforest, so you sometimes see these quetzal flying around the coffee trees and picking at the cherries.
James Harper: I saw a photo of the quetzal that you poured and it looks amazing and really difficult to pour. I'm kind of curious, tell me about one of your earlier attempts.
Rie Moustakis: All right. So, I sent you a photo, camera phones had only just come out. It's a picture of a flower.
James Harper: And how did you make this flower?
Rie Moustakis: So I free-poured, the technical term is called “a blob,” and then I got some chocolate syrup in a bottle with a fine tip, started in the middle, and did a swirl working my way outside, and then got a toothpick and dragged in from the outside, into the middle and different parts, to create a flower. Yeah. I was very proud of it back then.
James Harper: So, what's super interesting to me is how like went from this very simple flower pattern with chocolate syrup in the mid-two-thousands to this extraordinary quetzal you drew, and all in the space of more or less ten years. And I really want to know: how did that happen?
Rie Moustakis: So, James, super interesting question, but before we get into it, let's hear a couple words from our sponsors.
James Harper: Ok, so - the WCC Podcast Series is supported by Victoria Arduino. Victoria Arduino advances coffee knowledge and innovates across design, technology, and performance to produce machines that nurture coffee professionals' passion for espresso excellence. Learn more at victoriaarduino.com or give them a follow @victoriaarduino1905.
Today's episode on the World Latte Art Championship is supported by Urnex. Learn more about Urnex and its new line of biodegradable cleaners by visiting Urnex.com.
So, Rie: Where should we start this story about the transformation of latte art over just ten years?
Let's start at the very beginning, when competitions started.
James Harper: Okay. Let's paint a scene. You know, it's the mid-2000s, like where would we be?
Rie Moustakis: So, we are probably at a coffee trade show.
James Harper: and maybe it would sound something like this?
[Recording of many people having conversations in a large hall, but the scale of the room and the number of people diminished it to murmurs.]
Rie Moustakis: There'll be stands, some have equipment that they want to show off. So, there'll be a lot of people walking around, drinking coffee, tasting coffee. And I imagine, though, might be a little stage off to the side where there's a few coffee machines set up.
James Harper: Rie, I actually ended up speaking to a competitor in the very early days of latte art, you know, the mid-2000s, a man called Carl Sara. Do you know him?
Rie Moustakis: A Kiwi! Oh, sorry. That's what us Aussies call people from New Zealand, because New Zealand is famous for their Kiwi bird.
James Harper: Describe a Kiwi bird.
Rie Moustakis: So think of a round bird with a long beak and little legs. I always think it’s like round and fat and it can't fly. Pretty lazy, probably sleeps all day in a little burrow.
James Harper: So, Rie, it's interesting you mentioned the Kiwi bird because Carl Sara may or may not have used that same design when he represented New Zealand at the World Latte Art Championships.
Rie Moustakis: Huh. How would you draw latte art of a Kiwi bird in a cup of coffee?
James Harper: Well, Rie, let’s find out.
Carl Sara: My name is Carl Sara, I'm a coffee guy from New Zealand. In 1999, a friend and I were looking for a business, we were 21 years old. We ended up buying a coffee shop, had a good P and L (profit and loss), had a good opportunity, we were interested in the industry. One day, a lady came in, she had a barista competition tee-shirt on. I said, "what's that?" And she said, "it's a competition for baristas. You should come along." I said, "okay." I thought, if I go along, I learn more about coffee. We'll see what happens.
And I won the New Zealand barista championship. So I did WBC 2004, 2005, 2007, 2009. In 2006, I was helping coach the New Zealand barista champion at the time. New Zealand didn't actually have a, you know, qualified entry into the World Latte Art Championships, but also that year, the number of competitors was quite low.
So, I said, "look, I'll, uh, I'll represent New Zealand at this event," and put my hand up to do it. So, and there was a, you know, a small stage set up and lights. Let me think about how many people were in the audience. I’d say we’d be sitting in the, in the 100-150 range. When I got up on stage, to do my routine that I had never done before, I hadn't practiced, I hadn't even really thought about what I was going to do. My plan was get up and make some coffees. When I hopped up on stage, the machines still wasn't warmed up properly. So, it was still, you know, running cold, heat-exchanging machine. "It's okay. I can handle this." I had a random coffee. I think we had one or two minutes to dial it in. Um, I started my routine. And then I extracted from one group head and then I went to the other group head and its completely different extraction. I mean, like ten seconds different. And it turns out that, you know, one was like a 24 gram basket and then the other one was this tiny, you know, almost like a single basket, maybe, you know, 14 grams.
When I start steaming the milk, the heat exchanger hasn't warmed up the boiler and so I don’t have a full head of steam coming out. I've got this random ginormous steam one that has these, you know, huge holes on the end of it. And I just, I turned it on, I look at my bubbles and I look at the audience and I'm just like, "this is, this is only going to go one way and it's not going to be a moment of glory for me."
I'm making this milk. It's got huge bubbles in it. And I'm like, "right, what am I going to do? I know, I'll do a Kiwi." I've never poured a Kiwi before, I don't know how to pour a Kiwi. So then I start, I start pouring and these sort of chunks of milk are coming out and I'm like, "this, this isn't looking good." So then I, you know, I'd get my stick in there, and I, I start to, you know, sort of reshape it into something like a Kiwi.
It's kind of like a blob with a little bit pointy thing and something that represents feet. Yeah. Because my pattern was so bad, I had to define it somehow. And so, in lieu of skill, I just use some chocolate sauce to try and, you know, help define the pattern.
I mean, nothing scores points for definition than a, than a line around the outside of it, right?
New Zealanders. We have a lot of sheep and we don't have many people. So I was of course, you know, really cheered on by the very supportive Australian crowd, making sheep noises towards me. It always, you know, something that I, I really appreciated.
James Harper: So, Rie. Carl told me how actually he decided to compete again. And he said that he didn't feel he was a very good latte artist, but he had found the way to get a lot of points.
Rie Moustakis: Oh, how do you do that?
Carl Sara: In 2008, I competed in the Latte Art Championships again, as I'd already, you know, so clearly showed the world my dominance in latte art with the Kiwi, I really needed to think of a different approach. And so, I decided in lieu of skill, I'd read the rules. And so I read the rules and very clearly in the rules, it was that 50% of the score was allocated to taste and, you know, with very good grounding, they didn't want a latte art competition to be about people just making terrible coffee, but pretty designs.
I came onto stage and I'm like, well, if I can't beat them with latte art, I'm just going to make better tasting coffee. And so, the scenario of the rules was that you had maybe six minutes to make eight coffees. It was a really tight timeframe to get the coffees out. And because baristas wanted to focus on having time to do good pouring, everybody was running single shots.
And so, I decided that I'd just do double shot extractions into every single one of my coffees. And so everybody made really weak, watery tasting coffees. Uh, I did much better latte art that year, but I also picked up a whole lot of points in the first couple of rounds by having coffee that just tasted like coffee, nice and strong in a cup.
Everybody else had watery coffee. Flavor was 50% of the score. Mine was the only one you could really taste the coffee in strongly, and so I smashed it on the flavor scores.
So to me, this was a problem because latte art should really be about the latte art and about the coffee as well, but to be able to manipulate the scores and to be able to manipulate the rules that way, it's not really in the spirit of the event.
And so, competing in Copenhagen that year really highlighted to me some of the opportunities that exist for us to improve the competition.
Rie Moustakis: Yeah. So he, he didn't do too bad with his kiwi bird, but he still came 14th in the world in 2006.
James Harper: Wait, what, sorry? What, what do you mean, "not too bad"? I mean, were there people who performed worse than him?
Rie Moustakis: Uh, there were three countries which performed worse than him.
James Harper: Oh my goodness. How did that happen?
Rie Moustakis: Uh, and then in Copenhagen, 2008, he actually came fourth in the world, but that's what happens when you read the rules and you have a strategy. So, he's actually quite smart.
James Harper: Amazing. And not being one of the best latte artists in the world. He admitted himself!
Rie Moustakis: Yeah. I can totally relate to that.
James Harper: How so?
Rie Moustakis: Oh, I came fourth in the world too, just by reading the rules. Yes.
James Harper: Oh really? What's, what's that story?
Rie Moustakis: So look, I don't think I'm the best latte artist, but I read the rules, I studied the score sheets, and a bit like Carl Sara, you figure out where you can get the most points.
James Harper: Right. So, so when you competed, how were the rules different from Carl Sara’s time?
Rie Moustakis: By that time, taste wasn't really a factor in your score, unlike Carl Sara, and also there's an overtime penalty. So, every time you go over time, you lose points. So that was my first strategy: I thought, “I'm not going to go over time.” And my second strategy is to get perfect technical scores, because technical is something that you can get perfection in.
I did sneaky things, like I, instead of pouring a double shot into that big cup, I did single shots. So that saved me a lot of time because everyone else was doing double ristrettos or double shots in these big cups. And then when I steamed my big jug of milk, I won't steam it too hot, because no one is tasting it. No one’s drinking it. So the temperature, you don't need that hot. So I was figuring out where I could shave off like five seconds here and there. And the more seconds you shave off, it really gives you more time to pour your latte art.
James Harper: What did it taste like?
Rie Moustakis: Oh, probably very milky. Like Carl said, very watery, very milky, and not very hot.
James Harper: Wow. So, it's so funny. It's like, you know, Carl won by just making great coffees, which the rules incentivized, then the rules changed, and you made terrible coffees, but great latte art with the time you saved. And so, what does that tell us about the competition?
Rie Moustakis: Well, obviously we've come a long way since then. Now it's more, more realistic, more relatable to a specialty coffee shop.
James Harper: So, the competition's evolving, you know, the pendulum is swinging back and forth between Carl and you, and you know what it looks like today.
Rie Moustakis: Yep.
James Harper: But paint a picture for me, like back in 2010, you were making coffees.
Rie Moustakis: Yep.
James Harper: And if a café was able to make high quality latte art, like what did that say about the café?
Rie Moustakis: So a lot of people, a lot of customers have the perception that these guys know what they're doing. These guys are very skilled, and they make good-tasting coffee.
James Harper: Yeah! So, I spoke from a barista from Brazil.
Daniel Acosta Busch: My name is Daniel Acosta Busch.
James Harper: Who got into coffee, you know, around 2009.
Daniel Acosta Busch: I started in a little coffee shop here in Curitiba, it's a main city in the South of Brazil. And in the start off the year 2000, we have one of the first specialty coffee shops here in Brazil.
James Harper: What's interesting to me is how the specialty coffee café movement was taking place in so many corners of the world.
Rie Moustakis: Oh, I would like to know more about what was happening in Brazil at that time.
James Harper: All right.
Daniel Acosta Busch: In the beginning, we just see a heart, a rosettas, and tulips, and that simple bear with, uh, like a tulip and the sketch. The customers in front of the counter asked me, "Oh, can you write my name?" "Oh, can you make a heart?" "Can you...?"
Because of this, it stimulated me to practice more. And I told my manager, "I need more money." So, they told me, "but, if you sell more coffee, of course, l’ll pay you more." So, I challenged the customers, "come back tomorrow, and I’ll do it for you." "Come back tomorrow, and I do for you." And because of this, this is stimulate me to create more designs.
As my designs goes better, the customers said, "wow, it's amazing, it's better than yesterday." And this is a stimulate more. I started to create these swans with double wings with a lake, double hats. When the customers came up to pay, they said, "Oh, Daniel, make a better coffee than yesterday." So, they make a tip.
So, I receive more tips, but not more salary. Just the tips. And in 2015, I have a pleasure to be a champion here in Brazil. And in the same year, 2015, I was to Gothenburg in Sweden for the world stage. And I was in 11th place. When I saw Caleb Cha, I remember he made a zebra drinking a cup of coffee, it's a very famous pattern.
When I saw his presentation, I just [clapping noises], I just clapped and, "wow, this is amazing." He's better than me. And he deserved to win.
I think that's year, the latte art changed, because all the people stop to make just a rosetta, tulips, and hearts, and swans, and starts to make, create new designs with these patterns.
James Harper: Rie, would you believe me that Daniel found a way to use latte art to encourage coffee drinkers to cut back on adding sugar?
Rie Moustakis: Interesting. How did that go down?
Daniel Acosta Busch: Here in Curitiba, I have a coffee shop, we call it Luca. In 2016 or 17, I can't remember, DeLuca and a private health insurance company make an advertisement. The people stopped to put sugar in our coffee.
We make a short video. I made latte art hearts and wrote inside the heart, "better without sugar," and put in the table of the customers. And it's very funny because all the customers put sugar just for habit. The campaign works because now I think that customers never drink coffee with sugar anymore. This is the way the latte art can change the life of the coffee people.
Rie Moustakis: Huh, a better without sugar campaign.
James Harper: Isn't that amazing? Like, saving lives one cup of coffee at a time. Just don’t put sugar.
Rie Moustakis: Yeah.
James Harper: And what's really interesting to me about his story was how he, you know, he's making swans and he, you know, he's really good by, you know, the standards of Brazil at the time, but then he admits that when he saw Caleb Cha and that zebra, I got the impression, he felt like it was just falling behind the development of the latte art world.
Rie Moustakis: I think by the time he came to Caleb Cha doing, it was a zebra drinking coffee, creativity was a big part of competition. So back in the mid-2000s, we talked about hearts and rosettas, and if you're really pushing it, tulips and swans. Now, the heart, rosettas, and tulips, they're the building blocks for the more complex patterns. So now all the complex patterns are a combination of those pouring techniques.
James Harper: So, Rie, there was a period of evolution, you know, starting around, you know, 2012 onwards, where every year, it kind of felt like the iPhone back in the day, where every year, you had these amazing upgrades you just had to have. Like, what happened year on year?
Rie Moustakis: So, thinking back, it was in 2012, the World Champion from Russia, Victoria Kashirtseva, she did an inverted tulip. So, she did a tulip and turned the cup around mid-pour and did another tulip into that. And back then, that was like, "wow, that's amazing—she turned the cup around while she was pouring." And then in 2013, there was a big upgrade, I guess you can say, if you're talking about an iPhone. The Japanese competitor who won, Hisako Yoshikawa, she free-poured a rose and that was… yeah, mind-blowing.
James Harper: I heard that she invented a new way of holding the milk pitcher to make that rose.
Rie Moustakis: Yeah. And the way she poured as well. So still on the building blocks of, say, a heart, rosetta, tulip, but in a more advanced, intricate, technically difficult way of pouring.
James Harper: Yeah. And Rie, in your opinion, what's driving this, just, burst of creativity?
Rie Moustakis: I guess. Yeah. In 2010, we see, you know, Instagram, we see smartphones. Everyone has a smartphone. YouTube as well? You see a lot of latte art tutorials on YouTube. And I think that's how I learned as well. I went on to YouTube, watch a few videos and then tried it myself.
James Harper: Right. And what happened after that?
Rie Moustakis: And after that was creativity became a big component in latte art competitions. Cause now people wanted to see patterns that they've never seen before. I think the year after we saw a turtle or pirate ship or a hummingbird. Yeah, in 2016, a South Korean competitor poured the character of Tinkerbell in the cup.
James Harper: Ah, yes. His name is Um Paul.
Rie Moustakis: So, one of the judges I spoke to who judged Um Paul in the world latte art championships said when he saw the Tinkerbell, he was blown away, because he's never seen it before. And he had a huge emotional connection towards it because it reminded him of his daughter.
James Harper: Oh, wow. Its interesting you mentioned, you know, parent-child relationships because that's also a part of Um Paul's story, when I spoke with him the other day.
Rie Moustakis: Oh, I would love to know more about Um Paul's personal journey.
James Harper: All right. Here we go. Oh, and Rie, by the way? This guitar music you're hearing, Um Paul made this music.
Rie Moustakis: He's a musician!
James Harper: Yeah.
Um Paul: Well, my name is Um Paul. I'm from South Korea. I'm a World Latte Art Champion. I'm also a trainer and a musician, a dancer and a comedian—is right. What did I do to before it's getting into the coffee industry? I was a student of a college, you know, just I studied, and I studied, and I studied. And then, after I was in the Navy, I had to go to school again, but I'm concerned about my major. I was majoring in automatic engineering, but I really hated mathematics.
I didn't go to school again, so I was looking for a job or something. So, one day I dropped by a small coffee shop. And I met latte art on the cappuccino. One of my dream was to be a chef, you know, chef, I love cooking, and also I love drawing. As I sip the cappuccino, I realized that this is one I can cook and I can draw at the same time. Wow. What is that?
Yeah, this is why I asked the barista and owner-barista, "what is this?" "Oh, this is a latte art, blah, blah, blah, blah. Do you want to work with me?"
"Yes!" After that I work as a barista.
In 2006, I open my own shop, roastery shop. I didn't say anything to my mom because my mom really, really, really, really want me to be a, you know, car-center owner, or she want me to work at a big company. My mom is always, always upset. So one day there was a paper in my mom's hand. "What is this?" It is about the money, you know, to study college, and I have to pay them the money.
"Why is this cheaper than before?"
"Mom, now I'm working as a barista."
"Barista! What is that?"
"Making coffee."
"Making coffee?! Get out of here, get out of here, get out of here. Why you changed it? Why did you change it? And the way you didn't say anything to me."
"Oh, because you always hate me. You always hate doing something."
My mom’s generation, they thought making coffee is a very bad work. And while I open and run my coffee shop, my mom, she never came by my coffee shop.
Hmm.
After I opened my shop, many people came by to my shop to see and to drink my latte art. I was not a free-pour latte artist because I really love etching skill. You know, every day I made many doggie and the bear... because what I really love is cute, cute, yes, designs. That's why. I always try to make people happy.
One day, I had to get out from my, my house because my mom really hates roasting coffee at home. "Get out of here!" Because of many smoke, you know.
I had to quit my second coffee shop. And fortunately, first Korea national championship was open 2000, maybe 10. It was my first competition. I didn't know the competition was a national championship, I thought it was just a small one. Oh, it was, "Okay, okay. I want to compete." And I got third place and there are many people told me, "Oh, this is national championship." Oh okay. I didn't know, I didn’t know, really.
2010, I closed my shop. I had to work, and so I work as a barista, sometimes the manager. Whenever I worked, always at three or four months, the owner is, "hey, you’re fired! You’re fired." Always!
My character is very unique in Korea. So many people told me, "you're not Korean style, you’re American style," always they say. So, I think differently. So, this is why I couldn't work a very long time in a same company.
2016 is I won Korean national championship. I tried six times to be a national champion. Third place, second place, second place, third place, second place. And first place. It, it means that I have been practicing for six years already.
Right, whenever my friends ask, "Um Paul, why you don't practice? Because the World Latte Art Championship is coming coming very soon."
"Yeah, I know. I know. Hey, push the button."
"Where's your button?"
"Here. Yeah. Hello. My name is Um Paul. I'm really happy to be here, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Automatic machine, you know.
Recording of Um Paul on stage: "Hello, I'm Um Paul, and I'm really happy to be here to make my latte art for you judges. First of all, I'm going to make an angel, next one is Tinkerbell, last one is a baby swan. The title of my latte art is [sings] I believe I can fly!"
"Ok, I look forward to it. Thank you!"
Oh, 2016, when I won World Latte Art Championship, was that I create, animate, a Tinkerbell design. Until 2015, there was no design like Tinkerbell, you know, so Tinkerbell was the very first reality design. Tinkerbell is Tinkerbell. Angel is angel. Many baristas have made swan-like angel-like, but, um, I made Tinkerbell. Everyone. “Wow.” “Oh, this is Tinkerbell.” “Beautiful.”
[The music changes, and Um Paul is singing a duet—“I love coffee.” “How about you?”]
After 10 years, my mom came my seminar, coffee seminar, with my sister. And then when I came back to home and I asked my mom, "Mom, how was the seminar?"
"Hm... it was good. I don't still understand why you are happy with the coffee. I still want you to be an engineer, but if you like, if you love—do you love?" "Yeah. I love coffee." "If you love, do it. I don't know what is your dream, but now you are in a trouble. You don't have money, you don't have anything, but you always smile. If you love coffee like that, try that, try it. Do it. I don't understand. I don't know."
And in the three years later, I became a world champion. Whenever my mom is ah, drops by a coffee shop, and after ordering, "Okay. Can I get a latte? Can I get an Americano?" She didn’t come back because the she always asked barista, "Oh, hello. Maybe, do you know Um Paul? Do you know Um Paul?" "I don't know." "How were you raised? You have to know Um Paul. He is my son and a world champion, you know."
She’s changed a lot. She, now, she is my biggest fan, big fan of me, you know. She is a big fan.
Rie Moustakis: Nice. So, it was quite interesting because I guess like his mum didn't understand, how can you be set up for life making coffee? Then after you know, she saw that, oh, actually this is a great career for you, then she was like the proud Asian mum. Like, "Do you know, my son, Um Paul?"
James Harper: It only took 10 years, 10 years to prove.
Rie Moustakis: Yeah. And then he sings his introduction. That's amazing.
James Harper: Are you saying you didn't sing your introduction?
Rie Moustakis: Oh, I'm tone deaf. Yeah. I'm surprised you even got me to talk.
James Harper: Can you sing "I believe I can fly"?
Rie Moustakis: I believe I can't. No. Um... Anyway.
James Harper: And Rie, I know that after Um Paul, there was some even more extraordinary like technical accomplishments when it came to latte art, like the 2017 winner from Thailand, Arnon Thitiprasert. What did he do?
Rie Moustakis: So that one was a real game changer. He poured animals, including the eyes, without etching. So in the past to make great eyes like that, you usually have to use an etching tool, but he free-poured everything, a rabbit running through the woods, you know, a fox in the woods, a deer looking backwards in the forest. All free-poured, including the ears, the antlers, and eyes.
James Harper: Wow, about how small was it? Are we talking like an eye as big as a thumb?
Rie Moustakis: As small as a freckle.
James Harper: At what point in the pouring process would you have to do that kind of micro-eye? At the very beginning and then you build around it? Or towards the end?
Rie Moustakis: It's definitely towards the end, when you're getting to the end of your foam. And you're using like the thicker part of the foam to draw really clean lines and slowing down your pour, having good control.
James Harper: Wow. And then what happened afterwards? Like 2018, 2019. What sort of innovations did we see?
Rie Moustakis: Oh, I think 2019 was when anything was possible. So, anything you could draw on paper, you could draw in coffee. Like, we saw at a Parthenon drawn. And back in my day, people said, "you can't draw straight lines and corners in latte art, it all has to be curves."
James Harper: Wow.
Rie Moustakis: And we saw a lot more animals, but a lot more complex. With real clarity and lots of expressions.
James Harper: Wow.
Rie Moustakis: Yeah, it really opened a lot of doors when people realized they could master this free-pour technique, they could pour almost anything.
James Harper: And that kind of gets me wondering: if everything can be replicated on paper, onto, you know, some coffee foam, like - what’s next?
Rie Moustakis: The thing I get asked a lot by a lot of people is, "can you do my face?"
James Harper: So how amazing would that be? Imagine, you know, it's seven o'clock in the morning, you rock up to your local cafe. And your barista, hands you a cup of coffee with your face made using latte art.
Rie Moustakis: Yeah. Would that be freaky though? Cause he had to drink that... your face.
No, hang on. So, let's go back to: what is the future of latte art?
So, for example, in my cafe, we are using the Uber milk, which dispenses perfectly textured, hot milk, ready to pour perfect latte art. So that makes it very easy for me to train someone, to pour latte art because they skip the step of steaming the perfect milk.
James Harper: Mmhm. So Rie, do you have any other like philosophical reflections on latte art?
Rie Moustakis: Yeah, I guess this might sound a bit cliché, but every time you pour a bit of latte art, it’s like you're putting a bit of your personal self in that cup of coffee for that customer. So you kind of look at, if you want to talk about anthropology and like, hey, yo, back in the day caveman days where we felt compelled to, to draw something on the wall of the cave, and now like we have a tiny canvas in a little coffee cup and with two ingredients to work with, that's coffee and milk. And yet we have this desire to want to be creative and create beautiful things and beautiful patterns and express our creativity in this way.
Oh, that sounds like the credits. Shall we roll the credits?
James Harper: Let's do them! So, for this episode, we'd like to thank Carl Sara, Daniel Acosta-Busch,
Rie Moustakis: and Um Paul.
James Harper: And there were many more people who would like to thank, and we've listed all the names on the SCA website.
Rie Moustakis: Should we hear a few words from our sponsors?
James Harper: Yeah, so the WCC Podcast Series is supported by Victoria Arduino. Victoria Arduino advances coffee knowledge and innovates across design, technology, and performance to produce machines that nurture coffee professionals' passion for espresso excellence. Learn more at victoriaarduino.com or give them a follow @victoriaarduino1905.
And today's specific episode on the World Latte Art Championship is supported by Urnex. Learn more about Urnex and its new line of biodegradable cleaners by visiting Urnex.com.
Rie Moustakis: Hey, James, I think it's your turn.
James Harper: Ah, thank you! Yeah. So, this series was produced by me, James Harper of Filter Productions for the Specialty Coffee Association, and Rie, thank you so much for coming on board and helping tell this story about latte art.
Rie Moustakis: Oh, it was my pleasure. Thank you for having me. But before I go, I would like to know: what's our next episode about?
James Harper: Ah, Rie. So in the next episode, we are diving into the biggest competition of them all—the World Barista Championships. We are going to see the early days of competitions. Imagine buckets full of robusta and spit. Picture a World Barista Champion having their name on over a hundred cafés. And we're going to hear stories of competitors trying to year after year after year to win and to get so close, but to be told their espresso was too good.
Rie Moustakis: That sounds awesome, I can't wait to hear about that.
James Harper: Well, not exactly that, but you'll hear that in the next episode. Well, Rie, thanks again and stay safe and well over there in Perth, Australia, and I'll see you next year at the competitions.
Rie Moustakis: Thank you, James. We'll see ya.
James Harper: See you later.
Rie Moustakis: Bye.