#45: Education in Specialty Coffee: Engaging or Alienating? | Jennifer Haare & Amy Moore | 2018 Expo Lectures

Today’s episode seeks to explore our industry’s emphasis on educating customers, and the value of education for employees: While it has potential to be alienating, education will always add to an individual’s experience of a product in specialty coffee. Lecturers Amy Moore and Jennifer Haare explore the roots of education in specialty coffee, what we are trying to teach people, why, and how this relates to mindful consumerism.

Jennifer Haare has been working in coffee for seven years. She began as a barista at Ipsento before becoming the first-ever Director of Training and Staff Development. Amy Moore’s relationship with coffee education began in her kitchen with some green coffee and a popcorn popper and took off from there. She directs the public education program at Ipsento, teaching and developing classes on everything from the history of coffee to latte art to brewing the perfect cup.

Episode Transcript

0:00 Introduction

James Harper: Hello everybody, I’m James Harper and you’re listening to the SCA Podcast. Today’s episode is a part of our SCA Lectures series, dedicated to showcasing a curated selection of the extensive live lectures offered at SCA’s Specialty Coffee Expo and World of Coffee events. Check out the show notes for relevant links and a full transcript of today’s lecture.

This episode was recorded live at the 2018 Specialty Coffee Expo in Seattle. We’re now counting down the days to this year’s lecture program – it’s so exciting! Visit coffeeexpo.org for the schedule of this year’s offerings, with 88 different lectures to choose from!

Jennifer Haare has been working in coffee for 7 years. She began as a barista at Ipsento before becoming the first-ever Director of Training and Staff Development. Amy Moore’s relationship with coffee education began in her kitchen with some green coffee and a popcorn popper and took off from there. She directs the public education program at Ipsento, teaching and developing classes on everything from the history of coffee to latte art to brewing the perfect cup.

Jennifer, Amy – take it away!

0:00 Introduction and background to Jennifer Haare and Amy Moore and how they got involved in training

Jennifer Haare: Thank you to our lovely room host. Thanks Taylor. Hi everybody. This is awesome. There’s just so many people here. Is everyone feeling pretty comfortable over there? Thank you so much for coming. This is our lecture, Education Specialty Coffee Engaging or Alienating. The purpose of this lecture is to examine public and staff education. We’re going to be kind of diving into it how we can make it more accessible. But remember this is also your lecture. So, there’s a Q&A portion at the end. We really expect a lot of questions. So be thinking yeah and just the more questions, the more we can get out of this together. So, thank you.

I’ll start by introducing myself. I’m Jenny. I work at Ipsento Coffee and a little nervous. my coffee story as basically been when I was in high school, it was my dream to become a barista because it was where I hung out after school and the local coffee shop wouldn’t hire me. So, I had to wait until I got to college where I could trick them into hiring me. So, I was a barista all through college, four years. I moved to Chicago and I started working for Ipsento where I still work, and I really liked being a barista. I would be able to interact with people. I loved coffee obviously, but for me, it was always about the people.

One of the most important people that I met during my time at Ipsento and in my coffee career was my trainer at Ipsento. So, his name is Joe. He’s in New York now. I wish he was here, but he was so patient with me and it was basically just at Ipsento. We’ll talk a little bit more about this, but we have an almost six-month training program to become a fully certified barista. That process for me it was the first thing that I was ever like not good at and I did milk training for so long and the patience displayed by my trainer and also my own perseverance. It was like I was fresh out of college. I had to keep working at this one thing. It was a really transformative experience for me because I just had to like learn a lot about myself through that process and so when it came time for Joe to move I wanted to be that person for somebody.

So now, two years later I’m the Director of Training and Staff Development at Ipsento. We have two shops in Chicago, and I work to kind of, my job is twofold. It’s kind of a teacher, coffee teacher, basic coffee skills and equipment skills and like industry stuff and then also a counselor. So, that’s the staff development part. I work as a professional counselor for the people at our company and like I said, I’ve always been attracted to people and specialty coffee. I love the industry. I think people are like you all I assume, very caring and then curious. One of those people is Amy.

Amy Moore: Hi. I’m Amy. I direct our Public Education Program at Ipsento so teach classes, create classes for our customers and greater community and my coffee story is a little bit funny at least for me. Growing up I was always really resentful of coffee. I often had the experience that someone, usually my mom would be making coffee and it always smelled amazing, but it never tasted as good as it smelled. Maybe you’ve had that experience, maybe it was because she was pulling you know Folgers out of the freezer ground who knows when, roasted I don’t know. About seven years ago I moved from Chicago to San Francisco, which has a wonderful specialty coffee community and culture. Amazing shops within walking distance of pretty much anywhere you are and the closest shop to me was a little shop called Blue Bottle and that was the first time that I had an experience of coffee that exceeded my expectations both in the way that the coffee tasted obviously, but more than that the way that the baristas engaged you in the entire process and that was enough for me. It was compelling enough to really dig in and try to create that experience in my home.

A few years later I moved to LA. Anyone from LA in here? Well, if you’ve ever been there, you know that not much is within walking distance of anywhere you are. So, then my mission became to make coffee more accessible to me. So, I started home roasting in a popcorn popper which ruined my life in the best way because that’s all I wanted to spend my time doing so when I was preparing to move back to Chicago about two years ago. It was sort of a natural next step for me to find a way to spend the majority of my time thinking about and learning about and talking about and making coffee and that’s where Ipsento comes in.

In a similar way, I had an experience at Ipsento that exceeded my expectations and it really is because we have this value of engagement from the relationships with the farms where we source to the training that we have for our staff and the development that happens there and the community that we create with our customers. We have really amazing long time loyal consumers.

7:15 Why is training and education in specialty coffee valuable?

Amy Moore: and so, that’s a little bit about our personal motivation for education.

So, now we’re going to discuss why else education and specialty coffee is valuable and the first reason is that it’s an opportunity to share. We’re really excited about education and most people in specialty coffee are pretty nerdy or passionate and all of you are in a lecture right now. So that tells me there’s something that you’re excited about and it’s an opportunity to take what you’re learning this weekend and share it with your team, with your people, with somebody else. Another reason why it’s valuable is it provides us with an opportunity to connect we can connect the consumers to the product. We get to connect people to information. This applies both to consumers and to industry professionals our staff and we get to connect to each other over shared values creating an interaction and conversations that may not have otherwise happened and the third reason is it’s an opportunity to sell.

Education can explain and justify a higher price point, why the consequences of higher quality products. That can be a little bit alienating without the context of why, why is it higher and understanding the bigger picture can make some sense out of the cost?

Education can also encourage consumers to try new things. I teach a class every week where I finish with a coffee tasting, just a really basic palette training and I have students that come in all the time that they’re regular go-to drink is an iced caramel latte, something like that and they come away saying, “Wow, I really want to try coffee black, I didn’t hate it,” and I consider that a huge a huge win and it kind of brings the attention to the quality of the product. So, we’re in a retailer, roaster/retailer space and so we get to highlight the quality that we work so hard for through education. And then we also educate to sell a value or an idea. We value paying more for higher quality coffee, we value roasting to flavor, we value sourcing natural ingredients. Whether you know it or not every single one of you is creating culture and you have the opportunity to be intentional about the culture you’re creating. So, education provides us with an opportunity to be both mindful in the culture we’re creating and to create a culture of mindful consumerism.

10:00 What kind of education makes coffee alienating to customers, each other and wider society?

Amy Moore: So, we just discussed sales as a motivator for education which can feel alienating at sometimes. So, what other factors can make specialty coffee feel alienating? One thing is being lectured or talked at. Imagine.

Jennifer Haare: We all like it though.

Amy Moore: Right now, we like it, but imagine yourself walking into a cafe space, you approach the register and you see an overeager barista who is really excited and eager to tell you everything that they’re learning and think that they know about the coffee they’re working with.

Jennifer Haare: All the hands.

Amy Moore: Yeah, all the hands involved, the processes never knowing the whole time that you yourself are a coffee professional. I’ve seen this happen many times. It’s happened in our shop. It’s happened at other shops. It’s happened to me and this can over complicate a really simple experience. It can feel evasive why you’re trying to explain all these details about the product by and all the while avoiding the issue of price, of cost, of accessibility and sometimes it can feel disingenuous. The coffee industry can sometimes have a reputation for being young and for being needy. In a recent Sprudge interview, you guys have heard that since we [10:17 inaudible]. In a recent interview with Sprudge Jerry Seinfeld said that coffee and service industry professionals seem desperate for approval which can be off-putting. Eager, oversharing can come off as desperation without taking the customer or the consumers ‘interest into consideration.

But specialty often attracts a discerning customer who believes that the product should speak for itself that it doesn’t need a mouthpiece. Another point of alienation is that as an industry were not all on the same page about everything between the debates on flat whites and macchiatos we can create an environment that feels frustrating, confusing and inaccessible both to industry professionals and to those outside the industry and the last point of alienation that were facing comes from external antagonism. We’ve developed this stereotype., we’re often stereotyped, sometimes antagonized as being disingenuous our are wide-eyed genuine enthusiasm can be tiresome to people who haven’t had coffee yet. So, this external antagonism isn’t always grounded in reality, but it can offer us a helpful perspective and give us some feedback for how to improve. So, there are a number of ways we can engage, and Jenny is going to discuss some of those.

13:20 What types of educational opportunities exist within a specialty coffee business?

Jennifer Haare: Okay, so we just talked about antagonism, the stereotypes of the overeager or the snobby barista. So, look over here, got a nice guy who is making a pour-over and it’s going to be super specific and he’s probably talking to you about where this coffee came from, maybe who roasted it, maybe who picked it. The hand story again. These are things that are that are really good and special about specialty coffee. We are passionate, we like having background and these are the things that set us apart from like McCafé is this setting here and so we have some really good basics that were starting with. But we want to do a little bit better than our than our basics because you’re getting the same speech in a lot specialty shops that you go into and we start by talking about like origin, farm, maybe we’ll talk a little about direct trade. It’s like “Yeah, we go direct to the farm.” It’s like well, it’s not really 10 years ago. A lot of people are doing that. Like what else can we talk about? Maybe I’m a little cynical here but you know or like our brew recipes.

So, just some ideas starting and we’re going to, we also have a handout if you have like the Expo app on your phone. We have all of this stuff written in there too. But, some ideas for better basics just off the top of our head which we’ll get more into. The idea is that we’re going to be less redundant and that were also, what we’re talking about is applicable to our customer base. So, we don’t have all the same customers and every shop, so we don’t need to really talk about the same things. Some of those things that we like to talk about are our process in roast because we’re a roaster. If you’re not a roaster maybe that’s not your thing. Maybe you’re more into your products and ingredients. We can look to the restaurant industry who I feel like every other restaurant… We live in Chicago, big city, but they’re telling you where they source things from and why they source them. So, maybe your products and ingredients are something that you’d like to be educating about. Where do you get your syrups from, the pastries, what’s your relationship to that degree?

Also, huge right now, business development and staff. So, if you’re running like a specialty shop, you’re running a small business. Cat & Cloud is amazing with their podcast giving tips on how to run, not just a financially sustainable small business, but also like emotionally sustainable. So, there’s a lot to tap into there. How are you developing your staff? I really respect Starbucks for how up front they are with how they engage their staff. So, what are you doing with your staff?

Also, emotional labor is a hot topic right now. How are you dealing with emotional labor? Is that a conversation you guys are having? Do your consumers understand what that means? That could be yeah a hot topic. Also, equipment and techniques, this is huge in our shop too. It’s why do you have Hario instead of Bodum? How do you choose the equipment that you’re working with? How do you train your staff to use it? Why is that important to you? Then last is the community around your shop. So, the coffee shop is always a community space. Are you maybe wanting to educate about your staff? You have social media, you can, you know, I’ve seen a lot of barista features. Also, your customers, you have really amazing, unique customers. What do they do? Then also your neighbors, local businesses. That’s also a place where you can support your neighbors.

Amy Moore: So, speaking of our neighbors and our community, one way we can engage that is by offering education for the public. Something I’m passionate about, I spend the majority of my time thinking about and doing and in our public education program our goal is to create multiple entry points for our customers, consumers as well as our staff to engage with us through the experience of shared learning. Sometimes this happens outside of the space of ordering and drinking coffee. The entire pre-retail dimension of specialty coffee is really inaccessible without education and so public education is necessary to dig in there in some form. Education and coffee is often used to justify higher prices.

A recent study from the Harvard School of Public Health said that the US spends about 40 billion dollars a year on coffee. It’s a little bit more than that I think, and education can help make that money go towards the right things and transparency in education shows that we have nothing to hide because we’re pursuing a higher product quality and we’re holding ourselves to that standard. It’s a really good opportunity to be transparent.

18:15 How do we make opportunities for education within the specialty coffee space?

Amy Moore: And by creating opportunities for the public to engage we can increase the understanding of what makes specialty coffee special. So, how do we make this information accessible? There are few ways. One thing that I really want to encourage is fewer speeches at the register and more redirecting to alternative opportunities for engagement, but you need to create this opportunity so, how can we do that?

One simple way is to offer classes. We’ll talk a little bit more about that later on. But cuppings, it’s a really easy way to engage the public. You can offer events around movies, pairings sensory and palate training. You can offer physical content whether it’s a postcard about the origin or about your shop. You can dig into what your consumers are actually asking and answer those questions in a public forum. You can offer web content beyond blogs, real practical resources. Counter Culture and Cafe Imports do a really great job. I consult those all the time. We can engage the public in the way we serve the product offering the customer an opportunity to smell the dry grounds or to walk over to the counter as we’re pouring latte art. Small adjustments we can make just to make the effort to engage and we can also create products that invite participation.

This year we had a coffee from Panama and a washed honey, and a natural process and we served it as a [18:31 inaudible] and each coffee was on a different brewing method. One was an arrow press, one was an espresso and the other one was on our nitro coffee and so, that’s just a really easy way to invite engagement for those consumers that really do want to dig in and know more. Another thing to consider as you’re pursuing education for the public is that it’s really important to facilitate a shameless learning environment. This is something I care a lot about because I’ve been in a lot of learning environments specific to Specialty coffee that don’t do that well. So, how can we do that? The first thing to keep in mind is don’t make people feel bad for what they like. It’s not going to make them

Jennifer Haare: It’s not cool

Amy Moore: want to like it. It’s not cool but, if we choose to see it as an opportunity to expand the ideas and the products that the consumer is exposed to then it really does create space for shared learning. Next, don’t talk badly about other products. Saying something else is bad, that’s not going to make your product better and then the last thing don’t just present a lot of information. As the authority, as coffee professionals. It’s our responsibility to go above and beyond and figure out where the consumer, the public where they’re at and what their interests are. So be curious. I’ve been to cuppings before where they’ve felt very alienating because it’s just all this information that we have that we want to tell you and we don’t care what you have to offer or how you interact with it and the more you’re willing to do for your consumer the better that experience is going to be for them and for you as well.

The last thing to consider when pursuing public education is that it’s dangerous. What I mean by that is that you’re going to be held to higher expectations and higher standards and we’re going to need to be able to meet them.

22:10 Ways of building a staff training program

Amy Moore: And this is why creating an engaging culture within our staff, within our staff education also matters and that’s something that Jenny does really well. She’s going to talk about that.

Jennifer Haare: So, staff education surprise not just training. Your goal obviously, that’s probably the first time that you interact with that. Specialty coffee education is when you’re training your employees because you have to kind of get them to know why you’re doing what you’re doing. So, the goal is like not to be the only person in your shop or your business that knows how to do everything. So, that makes sense. It’s good. But what if we think of it more as an investment in like our primary resources, which is our employees. So, when we start thinking about it as an investment, yeah, you’re doing more upfront. It’s risky, but it’s going to be really good overall because your employees are going to be more intentional with the product once they know.

Everyone wants a why especially in specialty coffee shops younger people love to know why they’re doing what they’re doing. Younger people are looking for ways to connect with the bigger picture. So, as soon as you start giving them that information, they’re going to be a lot more intentional with the product which means you’re going to be delivering superior goods, which is what you want to do in the first place. They’re going to feel that investment which leads to, we believe and have experienced retention. This is a lot more sustainable overall. You don’t have to keep training people which can be exhausting and the more information that people have, the more connected to the bigger picture. It’s going to feel a much more multifaceted role. They’re going to be emotionally engaged and this is going to be more meaningful overall and it gives you more of a chance to connect with your staff because it’s always learning should be a conversation. In telling them what you are passionate about they’re going to connect with you and you’re going to learn a lot more about them. It’s going to be a better overall work environment.

So, beyond training, how can we move beyond training? My first piece of advice is to get super organized with your training program. So, we don’t have a training program. If it’s more just like okay your first three days, you learn how to steam some milk. I guess that’s not really specialty coffee anymore. Probably I’ll have more at a training but having a nice structured program that people can learn on their first day or even when they’re looking to get hired with your company. Knowing that they’re going to be invested in identifying those expectations will be huge because they know what they’re committing to and you know what you can expect from them. Part of that, I would say is identifying different learning styles not just within your staff but also customer. So being very clear with your staff, not everyone likes the same thing you’re going to have to adjust and then recognize that recognizing that in your staff too. That’s something I run into a lot is there are readers and then not readers.

So, my technique is I’m going to have you read this whole book. That does not work for everyone. So, being flexible around that and again when you make space for a conversation with your staff around learning, you’re going to learn a lot more about them. This will be good for your business growth and when you’re learning more about your customers, it’s a networking opportunity which I love because we’re here. Further staff education, creating more learning opportunities beyond training. So, what does that look like? In-house throwdowns are fun and educational for people that are interested in latte art, and just seeing barista performance. You could do like an in-house brewers competition. So, encouraging people to look up brewers cup videos, coming up with their own recipes. It’s just a way to give them space to explore without necessarily having to tell them what to do.

Also, movies for staff for fun, literature, so magazine subscriptions, books. These may seem like little simple things but when our Roast Magazine comes in the staff is like, “Oh, let me see that.” It’s a really easy way to expose them to information. Also, a staff newsletter if you have one with just like FAQ’s from customers or just FAQ’s from staff. Just getting that information out in many ways instead of just one first day and then the last thing I kind of talked about this but rewarding staff who are interested in learning more. So, helping maybe if somebody wants to come to SCA helping them get there. Maybe you can’t afford to send everyone to SCA but giving them the tools to come to something like this or even just Coffee Fest or just giving them the information to go further.

Helping them if you can financially is always nice as well, but rewarding them thinking of them as ambassadors of quality worth investing in and then you’re acknowledging that it is valuable to you, that they learn more and then once they have accrued all this information listening to it. So, taking their advice, making space to create a community of learning and not just being okay you learned, I’m still the boss. So, creating space for that. Reward them with access it helps you. We have a little anecdote, one of our employees was super into the slow bar, but he was still pretty new we weren’t sure, “Do we want you dialing in the pour over as yet?” So, we gave him do a little research, come back, give us a recipe and he was all about it. He went hard and he came back, and it was like he was dialing in some amazing recipes and we’re like, okay, we’re going to give you a couple more jobs and now he’s our slow bar manager. So, it’s like you have a little bit, people show up and then you got yourself a slow bar manager.

Another member of our staff is ourselves. So, leader education and this is something we’ve talked about throughout planning for this lecture. Where do we get our knowledge? Let’s examine where we’re learning. So, we’re here, we probably get our various coffee emails like Barista Hustle subscription and checking that out. But examining where knowledge comes from doesn’t only come from the industry. How can we expand out of that? I think I mentioned the restaurant industry but taking a multidisciplinary approach, looking to other Industries for what inspires you there is very valuable and none of us really went to school for coffee. I think we say that a lot but it’s true. We’ve all brought new experience. So, to keep remembering that, to keep looking for other ideas.

Those ideas can also be in your staff. Your staff is coming with a lot of experience that they can offer you too and looking maybe even to our customers. For example, I mentioned learning how to teach. Well guess what, we have a lot of teachers as customers. So, I was just like, “How do you handle this? What do you do, this?” Also looking to other shops just remembering that not every shop is like your shop. Not every city is into the same things as your city and all this is related to having a conversation around coffee. Remember it’s a two-way street.

29:30 How to build engagement through authenticity and inner motivation

Amy Moore: So, we’ve spent a little bit of time discussing how to better engage our customers, our staff and ourselves. Now, let’s discuss the key to engagement and that’s authenticity and our generation love this word. We love authenticity, it’s our favorite thing. It’s become a cliché, but clichés are clichés for a reason and, in this case, it’s true. Authenticity is the key to engagement and so, the first thing that we need to do to cultivate authenticity in these spaces is to examine our motives before we can ask somebody else to engage. We need to take a self-inventory. So, start considering what is your motivation?

We’re going to come back to that. Is it sales? If it is, be mindful about the stories that you’re using to sell things? You don’t want to be manipulative using the trope of the struggling farmer, but you can honestly and authentically talk about the mutually beneficial relationships between roasters and farms. In this context, you just want to keep in mind that you’re contributing intentionally. Are you motivated by engagement, by creating community? Consider are you making space for what another person, the person you’re educating what they have to offer or are you the only one with something valuable to say? We’re up here, we’re giving a lecture to you. But having just said that please come and find us and tell us about what you’re learning and what you’re teaching and what’s interesting to you because we want to hear about it and then also consider do you have reason? Is it the thing to do. What got you here in the first place?

So, practically how do we cultivate authenticity? It’s really important to think about that why, think about the motivation. The content is only engaging if you actually care about it. Not every coffee professional cares about the same things and that’s really exciting. It’s an opportunity to learn. We’re all here for different reasons. Think about some of the people you’ve met so far. Have you asked anybody what they’re here to learn about and what they’re excited about? If not, there’s still time start doing it and the more passionate you are, the more engaged your staff and your consumers will be. You have the power to create community around what is important and your motives matter.

So, how did you get here? What brought you to this place? Passion engages in a practical way. It’s an opportunity to bring it back to the bigger picture, and it’s a challenge to find new ways to tell old stories. So, talking about let’s take the example of you know, TDS and measuring the extraction in our coffee. That’s not going to be the most compelling thing to every consumer but

Jennifer Haare: May even be snobby.

Amy Moore: it might be alienating. But if you get into conversation where you apply it to the reality that it helps you consistently create a cup of coffee that tastes really good. Then that’s practical, that’s compelling and that information becomes valuable and it’s also important to develop educational content based on things that are practical and relevant to you based on your personal experience and on your expertise. Your values should drive your education. Are you a shop that makes all of your own syrups and you spend a lot of time developing that? That’s awesome. That’s an opportunity to teach a class about syrup making. If you’re excited about something it’s going to be contagious other people will be excited about it too and the established path for education and engagement doesn’t have to be the one that you follow.

Maybe everyone is doing a cupping and you just really don’t want to do it. That’s okay. Maybe you source all of your coffees from the same country. It’s an opportunity to engage your community or consumers and talk about why. Share about the history of that origin and what is motivating that decision. Maybe the certifications you prioritize are really important to you. Maybe you spend a lot of time reading about and researching your water quality. That’s something you can educate about. Maybe your emphasis is on your experimentations and roasting. These are things that your consumers are going to be interested in and their areas to explore in education. In any event, in any class, in any situation where you’re engaging people in public education and staff education you want to make sure that you’re encouraging participation, dialogue and interaction.

So, we’ve talked a little bit about authenticity and now we have a little call to action for you all. We started this lecture by sharing our whys, our motives and now we want you to consider or reconsider yours. Why are you doing this, whatever it is you’re doing?

Jennifer Haare: Are you still doing it?

Amy Moore: Yeah. Who are you educating and how will you connect? Are you prepared for more mindful consumers? Are you prepared for empowered employees? If your passion is authentic, then you will create a culture that is both engaging and meaningful, impactful and you’ll avoid alienating. So, that’s all we have for you guys. We’re happy to take any questions you guys have.

35:45 What are your tracking tools to be aware of where a barista is in their training cycle and how to empower them to be invested in their objectives.

Attendee 1: Good morning.

Jennifer Haare: Hi.

Attendee 1: I’m Nick from Mighty Good Coffee in Ann Arbor and we have four cafes now and are now growing, codifying a training program. So, while we’ve had one person do it for a long time. Now, we need to train trainers to do it

Jennifer Haare: Right

Attendee 1: which is terrifying because then there’s more people, opinions are going to come in

Jennifer Haare: Totally

Attendee 1: with what they want. My most important question I think is what are your tracking tools that you’re using to say this person has met these objectives or has done these things? How are you? How are other people in your organization aware of where let’s say a barista is in their training cycle and how do you empower them to be invested in meeting certain objectives over time?

Jennifer Haare: Awesome. So, yeah, that’s a great question. Have you started training trainers yet or you’re working towards it? Okay, awesome. Great. So, we have, Ipsento’s very checklist-oriented. We have checklists for literally everything and so, in just our basic training program. That’s how we run it. It’s basically we do like modules. So, you’ll start with like register and slow bar, milk, espresso and you have to kind of test out of each thing. We do, for this test a combination of practical exams where it’s like timed and you have to do everything perfect. We also have written exams just to make sure that everyone’s on the same page with how we want to answer frequently asked questions. and then also just like recipe memorization and stuff like that.

So, Yeah, I guess testing is the number one thing. It’s like you get one try to get it right and then you can retest later. I know that some companies are more intense about that. I don’t believe in punishing people for like, you have to wait six months before you can test again. I think it’s ridiculous. But, we also have retests. So, yeah testing and then once everyone has completed all those they’re like fully certified. As far as training trainers go how we measure people’s job performance right now is called a bar evaluation. So, once you are a fully certified barista, we do this quarterly and it’s modeled actually off of the barista competition.

So, it’s a whole rubric which is shop specific. So, we have two shops right now, and it’s whatever you need to test people on, you just put on there. So, the way that we do that is like all announced like okay, we’re doing bar evaluations next two weeks, review the rubric, make sure that you know all this stuff. So, it’s a good way to get everyone looking at exactly what they need to be doing if they haven’t looked at it in a while and then you have to get a certain grade on the bar evaluation. So, I have actually two junior trainers under me. for when I’m not able to train everyone and they have to get a certain score on those bar evaluations. They have to be fully certified and then whatever other, like certain things that I need them to read I would also just be like check these off. So, checklists. Does that answer? Yeah. Oh, and we also send emails. We have an email to our shift leaders, so we always tell them like where everyone’s at in training too. Another question.

Attendee 2: Hey, you guys at Ipsento or do you know of any quantitative data analysis that’s been done on the ROI on the more you invest in training translates to you know revenue and gross profit?

Jennifer Haare: That is a great question. I do not at this time have data for that.

39:20 How do you get your employees to be more invested in their jobs?

Attendee 3: We are starting, I’m from Newport Rhode Island, Empire Tea & Coffee. We’re starting a training program because we’ve opened more stores and we’re expanding and our owners. I’m a manager and our owners are delegating tasks instead of trying to do everything themselves.

Jennifer Haare: Good

Attendee 3: So, we’re at the point where we are promoting trainers and one of the things that I see is coffee is a young industry. We have a lot of college kids. How do you get your employees to go from being this is just a paycheck to this is something I am curious about and I want to commit time and effort to this job?

Jennifer Haare: Totally. Well, sometimes you can’t. Just kidding! I think the trick for us has been having a really intense hiring process. I know not everyone is living in a city where everyone wants to work in coffee. Chicago was really lucky and that way. Letting people know when they take the job what the expectation is going to be and then taking the time to learn about them. I think being in touch with people’s personal goals. They don’t have to want to be a 20-year coffee professional. They can want to do something else. But, as long as you can relate back to that, I think you can always find a way to relate the job performance to what they want to do long-term. I think that’s been really helpful for us.

Amy Moore: I think anything you can do to create the feeling that it’s a team is also really helpful from that point from the beginning, from the hiring. How does this particular job connect with your long-term goals and then also in the practical day-to-day instead of asking a person what haven’t you done? To just adjust the way that your interaction goes by saying something maybe like, “How can I help you and how can I help you get to where you would like to be and be a resource to you.” I think that’s been really helpful for us to facilitate the spirit of taking ownership and taking responsibility and, it is, for some people it’s just going to be a job and there’s not a whole lot you can do about that, but you can model taking ownership.

42:00 Recommendations for learning resources

Attendee 4: So, anyway I first want to thank you guys for having such a really organized, well put together presentation. Jenny, I sat next to you on the plane the other day.

Jennifer Haare: Nice to see you again.

Attendee 4: Anyway, I’m opening a shop, and this is kind of a second pass into this business for me. But I’ve spent the last 25 years doing something completely different and so it’s going to be really hard for me to open up shop in a mid to smallish sized town and wait 6 months before I have certified baristas unless I can import them or something which I can, but I can’t really afford to do that. So, any resource material you could point me to that can help me sort of at least have probationary baristas for the first six months?

Jennifer Haare: Yeah, that’s a good point too. If you have the time, we do one hour a week trainings, which is why it takes so long and have so many modules so you can definitely scale back on that. The Specialty Coffee Association has so much stuff online that is really helpful that you can kind of cut through. Barista Hustle is also doing coffee. Is everyone familiar with Barista Hustle. They just started doing online coffee modules for learning different things. But, that website, not like learning stuff aside just is amazing to just tell them. Ask employees to read one article on there. So baristahustle.com major shout out, love them. Yeah, that’s the most well thought out resource material I can think of.

Attendee 4: Thank you and I have another question.

Jennifer Haare: Oh, yeah, nice.

43:50 What is emotional labor?

Attendee 4: Seems like we have a lot of time. You made a reference or said a phrase earlier that I’ve never heard before and I think it was emotional staffing. Did I say that right?

Jennifer Haare: Emotional labor

Attendee 4: Emotional labor, thank you. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Jennifer Haare: So, emotional labor is a concept that I think millennials are really latching onto and it’s this idea that you have to… This is very true in specialty coffee and just the service industry in general is that you got to be nice to everyone and that niceness has to seem really authentic and that can be really exhausting because it doesn’t leave a lot of space to just be yourself. I think it’s partly because people are reviewing you all the time now like on different, it’s like showing up everywhere. So, there’s no space to have a bad day and not be called out immediately. That being said, you should always try and connect with people and I’m still mad but, yeah emotionally, it’s just this idea that you’re having to work labor additionally just emotionally, I guess, and Amy is going to help me clear that a little bit.

Amy Moore: Well, to clarify also that comes from the consumers that that’s an expectation from them. But it also happens within the staff and in management roles and supervisory roles. A lot of emotional labor is required for you to support your staff as well. So, I think that’s what that’s we’re referring to there.

45:45 How do you create a space that is both third wave specialty but also inclusive to members of the community who enjoy second wave coffee?

Attendee 5: Hi, can you hear me? My name is Melissa. I own Brewpoint Coffee in the Chicagoland suburbs. We love Ipsento you guys do awesome stuff so thank you for the presentation.

Jennifer Haare: Thanks for coming.

Attendee 5: Yeah, so my husband and I opened up a shop about three and a half years ago kind of on a whim and when we started we just became kind of second wave, kind of naturally because neither of us had really done coffee. Now we’re three years later, we’re three shops and we just opened a specialty shop that’s like third wave and in the western suburbs and it’s a really like fancy, neat place, but I’m finding that our original customer base is, the whole gambit. It’s old, young, as diverse as possibly could be and I’m finding with having a specialty shop in the suburbs I’m getting more and more people feeling like they’re not included because it seems too specialty almost.

Jennifer Haare: They’re alienated.

Attendee 5: Yes, and so then we made a really hard push to be like no, this is a community space for everyone and then I noticed that some of our staff started feeling less of a pride in the coffee because we’re focusing so much on community and they started going against each other versus together and so I’m curious how you guys do education when it comes to trying to really hit a full market of people, not just the millennial who’s interested in coffee, but really everyone across the board making sure they feel included. First and foremost, the customer base, but obviously making sure we have the right staff that really believe in that as well and so I’m curious how you guys go about doing that.

Jennifer Haare: Sure, that is definitely something we’ve run into. We want to just be all about coffee. I would recommend having a very diverse interest in the staff. So, it’s not like the symbol but we need some coffee people right now. We hire mainly based on having people engaged. So, they don’t need to have, you can train coffee skills, but you can’t train loving people. So, that’s the number one thing that we look for and when they love the customers they are always going to love the people that they work with and you’re just building a better team in that way. Again, I think it sounds like you’re already doing like step one which is listening to what people on staff are upset about. Hearing them and maybe creating space for them to do what they’re interested in coffee, but reminding them like hey, these people are like paying your… you’ve got to engage it, it’s not one or the other. It can definitely be both.

Amy Moore: I think this is also a really helpful place where public education comes in. It’s just reminding me of an instance where I was telling one of our baristas that we were having a public cupping and invited them to come and they were able to see firsthand the questions of the different people in attendance who are coffee professionals, people who barely even like coffee and somebody got it for them as a gift. The whole range and so kind of bringing the reality of where the customers are at and your staff together can kind of naturally move forward in that way. I’ve seen that be really helpful. Also, just the way that we’re communicating in the space is really important. For example, the signage in your shop. We were just talking about this because it’s something that we feel like we have struggled with and have seen some really great examples of in local shops here just making things really clear and simple but not compromising the quality of the product. So, finding areas to be accessible.

Jennifer Haare: So, maybe it’s setting your shop up so that it’s not so scary when they first come in ambience wise, clear menu placement, stuff like that so that the employees don’t have to do all the work of welcoming people and that’s definitely something we could work on that. The employee has to meet you at the door and give you the menu and like, “Okay is everyone good here?” But letting the whole shop welcome people in so that the baristas can still focus on coffee. Thanks. That was a great question.

50:00 Practical input for how to identify learning styles and educating to different learning styles?

Attendee 6: Good morning. Thank you guys so much. It’s great information. I’m Sam. I’m from Southern Idaho. Our coffee shop is called Twin Beans Coffee Company. You spoke about learning styles and identifying different learning styles and education. My question being when we were developing our training program in our education I was blessed with a slew of employees with very similar learning styles.

Jennifer Haare: Okay.

Attendee 6: So, my whole training revolved around that learning style and now I’ve realized I have some baristas with wonderful skills and love of people, and I think I’m the roadblock in this situation because I’m training in a way that’s not effective for them. Do you have any practical input for how to identify learning styles and educate to different learning styles?

Jennifer Haare: Sure. So, I think what I do now is something based off of what’s called the learning styles inventory so you can like search online and basically just help people if they don’t already know how they like to learn, help them identify that and work with them. But, on the first day of training, I’ll be like, “Okay. So, are you more hands-on? Do you like reading? How do you feel when you take tests? I’m just kind of talking to them, asking them what works for them. It has been really helpful to me. Everyone is like, “I’m a hands-on learner.” So then, I used to be like, “Okay, but first we’re still going to read.” But now I’ve kind of realized to adjust to that, to listen to them, to believe them and be like, okay, we’re going to throw you into this.

So, yeah again, let me back up a little bit. So, I asked them how they like to learn and then I start with that, but I still have the same three things. So, we do the hands-on portion, you do the reading and then you do the test. So, it kind of hits all three so that’s still an expectation of everyone but it helps me prioritize what’s going to work best for them. So, asking them and then building it into your training program. and then I would also say that the fact that we have written tests, because not everyone likes written tests and it’s very stressful for some people. So, I even have the option of we can talk through it. So, if people don’t like sitting alone and reading it.

So, for example to get registered, certified at Ipsento you have to answer 20 questions that are FAQ’s at the register like do you have soy milk and so, some people, they just really write really long paragraphs to everything and other people would prefer to talk that through with me. So, both of those things are acceptable. Does that help?

Attendee 6: That does help. Do you have any input on how to do that in your public education as well when you are doing large groups of people?

Amy Moore: Yeah. Well, with the larger group of people doing learning style inventory isn’t always practical and to be honest I find that those learning styles come out on their own but all of the classes that I create, I try to incorporate every learning style. So, a little bit of lecture, a little bit of hands-on, video and audio where I can incorporate it and so, I think yeah incorporating as many learning styles into a class or an event is the best way to handle that with a larger group of people.

53:30 How do you persuade more established employees to adopt more up-to-date learning techniques?

Attendee 7: Hello. Thank you for your time and putting a well-thought and honestly, very important lecture for everyone here in the industry. I’m Rodrigo Vargas. I come from Bethlehem, PA. I’m originally from Puerto Rico. I had to leave due to the hurricane and I moved to this town. Well basically, we only have one specialty coffee shop and I start working for this place and basically a lot of the things that the older employees in place that have been there working for four years, three years. Basically, a lot of their practices are not that quality oriented and are more into like the rush type of things or not caring that much about what they’re doing. Basically, as the operation has been going on I’ve been trying to teach you like the new employees and the older ones as well and basically what I am experiencing is a lot of resistance coming from the older employees. They learn at first, they employ it in the workflow, they do well for let’s say five to four days and afterwards they’re doing the same stuff over and over again and then they are basically having that push of having like a new person coming in trying to make that what’s best for everyone and they’re showing resistance because they feel that they’ve been there for longer. What will be the best course of action into educating these people while at the same time maintaining them like motivated to grow more into the industry and not be there just for their paycheck like they’re used to?

Jennifer Haare: That is complicated. Are you training?

Attendee 7: Yeah, I’m training and honestly, it has been easier for new people that come in there that they already have a passion for things, and they are eager to learn but my issue has been mainly with the older employees that they never had a learning experience and they are showing a resistance towards learning.

Jennifer Haare: Totally I think we got to find out what their motivation is. There’s something I think they have to care about something. It can’t just be the paycheck and maybe helping them identify that. Giving them the whys and why it’s important and why it matters. I think not everyone is this way, but people in my experience, motivated by doing a good job. If you can show them that doing a good job is possible and it is very possible to do quality and speed. Showing them that that’s possible. The best thing I could think of is it makes them feel good. Showing them that it’s possible, that makes them feel good and that you’re in it with them because there’s definitely going to be a resistance, new regime, don’t like this. I am used to the old way and that makes sense and meeting them there and saying I understand like this might be difficult. Having that conversation, having that connection can go far to get them trusting that this isn’t just trying to ruin their experience. What are your thoughts on that Amy?

Amy Moore: I think it’s also good to ask those that are more resistant if there’s anything specific that they’d like to learn because maybe they’re pushing back against what you’re trying to teach them, what they feel is being imposed on them, but change is really hard and I’ve experienced, working in a shop and somebody new or doing something in a different way and I get really defensive. I’m just going to be really honest. You’re doing it wrong. The way that I do it is the right way, but when I have the opportunity to dig in and take ownership of the information it makes me feel more motivated. So, that could be a way to go as well because maybe there are some specific things that they would like to learn that would open up that shared learning experience.

Attendee 7: Okay. Thank you.

Amy Moore: Yeah.

58:00 With people who have limited time, what are the essential things to focus on with a public education program?

Attendee 8: Thank you ‘all so much. This has been a really great lecture. I’m Kyle. I work for a Noble Coyote Coffee in Dallas. I’m the only full-time employee so I have the distinct honor of wearing a lot of hats. I do all the sourcing. I do all of the education and I also put beans into bags. So, when I started our education program a couple of years ago, we had like five people show up for a cupping and now every month on the first Saturday we get about 30, 35 people.

Jennifer Haare: Wow.

Attendee 8: It’s kind of overflowing our space. On the one hand it’s like cool this is working. On the other hand, because I’m so busy I feel like I’m not able to put enough into this and it’s getting bigger than I can handle. So, on top of the cuppings we’re also doing brew classes where I have to actually write curriculum where it’s this is what we’re going to teach people and why. So, for people with very, very limited time, running around doing lots of stuff. What would you say are the essential things to focus on for a public education program where you do this that’s good, the other stuff can kind of come later?

Amy Moore: I think it depends a lot on your consumers and the people that are coming to your classes and really trying to gauge what they want to know. Generally, I think people are really interested in cupping. So, I think they’re interested in how to make better coffee at home. I think those are things that everybody wants to know. If you’re trying to get, are your cuppings free?

Attendee 8: They are free. everything’s free.

Amy Moore: You could start charging for your couplings. Probably get a few less people showing up, maybe,

Jennifer Haare: And you can hire someone

Amy Moore: and then you can hire somebody else to help teach. But yeah, honestly, I’m not maybe not kidding about charging for cuppings, but I think digging into the people that have already been participating and maybe if you have their contact information, sending out some feedback forms. I recently started doing that with some classes to see is what we’re teaching really what people want to know and generally the people we’re interacting with it is how to taste coffee. How to tell the difference between good and bad, how to walk into a specialty coffee shop and not be intimidated when I see this coffee that’s from Ethiopia and it says natural. What does that mean? To make that a little bit more accessible, open that up. But that might look different for your community as well.

1:01:00 How do you describe other non-specialty coffee businesses to consumers with little coffee knowledge?

Attendee 9: Hi, my name is Kate. I’m from Hawaii. I think I’m might be one of the only people in here but I’m a farmer and I own a coffee farm in Kona, and we do tours of our farm and then cuppings of just our own coffee and the biggest problem I have that I was hoping you could address is having all the clientele, the customers that come in knowing nothing about coffee. We’re not a specialty coffee shop that’s drawing people in. Most the people who come in are a lot older, drinking K-Cups at work. They’re just on vacation and they want to enjoy some coffee experience. But we’re like the first place they’ve ever experienced anything different. So, that’s my first question and the second which is similar is that we’re one of the very few farms doing that. So, a lot of farms are still I wouldn’t even call it second wave like we’re talking first wave, just roast up 100 pounds and put it in your garage type of coffee.

Amt Moore: Just burn it.

Attendee 9: So, also when I’m educating not disparaging other farms in the same time. I don’t want to talk badly about them, but for many of them they aren’t trying to be part of specialty coffee.

Amy Moore: Yeah, totally. Well, to address the first part of your question personally, for me those customers or students that come in to a class and don’t know anything that’s my favorite type of student because then it’s just like the world of coffee is your oyster, but I think it’s really important in that setting to first of all to come back to that idea of not creating an environment that shames them but to really see how can we expand your horizons in your relationship to coffee and to count any new understanding as a huge victory. If you’re probably having people okay, let’s take the K-Cup example. if you can get somebody who regularly drinks K-Cups to even think about trying to make their own coffee on a countertop drip that is a huge win because how many more variables do you have control over with a drip than you do with a K-Cup and every small movement forward is a huge victory and then, what’s the second question? Oh, disparaging other farms.

Amy Moore: Not doing that.

Attendee 9: Yeah, not doing that. I think if you’re doing something that you’re proud of that you’re excited about, really just stay there and focus on that and talk about that and people are going to come to their own conclusion. When I use an example when I’m talking about roasting and I compare it to toast and take a piece of toast that you got from your favorite bakery and you toast one piece for one minute and the other one for 20 minutes. One you’re going to be able to taste all the nice nuanced flavors from the bread and the other one you’re going to be able to taste all of those subtle nuanced flavors of the inside of your toaster and kind of compare that to roasting. People draw their own conclusions and we’ll connect that to certain companies that don’t have the same values that you do. So, if you can focus on helping people make those connections and taking ownership of new information rather than you know highlighting the perceived faults in other companies it’s really going to highlight the quality of what you’re doing.

Jennifer Haare: I also wanted to say that you’re like in an amazing position. You have so much to open people’s world. It seems like a burden probably and when people come in your like I have to explain all of this to you but you’re really lucky and I think just thinking, keeping that in your mind, you’re opening this door to people. It’s like something that they already like, they’re there but to teach them about this whole new world is like an amazing opportunity and to keep thinking that and the fact that you’re doing something different and you’re doing it well it sounds like.

Amy Moore: And it offers you a fresh perspective. It’s been probably a really long time since the first time that you had coffee or the first time that you had good coffee and so every person who’s new to that information, to that world. It’s an opportunity to come back to that perspective and think about things differently.

Jennifer Haare: We’re coming to visit.

1:06:00 When you introduce specialty coffee into a coffee business, how do you build excitement amongst your staff and customers?

Attendee 10: Hello.

Amy Moore: Oh, hi, ma’am.

Attendee 10: My name is Carrie. I manage a coffee shop in the South Loop of Chicago. I’m actually a wholesale client of Ipsento so you guys already know I love you guys. But, my question is so I took over this shop about two months ago and prior to me managing it was owned and run by a couple for the entire eight years of its existence. So, all of the staff. I’ve inherited mines two people that I have just hired but with that I’ve been making some changes to the way that the shop is run and the way that we handle coffee. Jenny was my trainer so, of course all of her rubrics and checklists I’m all about but I say that to say the customer base they don’t seem to be as excited about the changes in a lot of ways and our staff they are having a hard time. They were really eager because they weren’t taught with any sort of real standards. So, they’ve been excited to learn but, so I guess my question is I have some staff members who are really eager and probably present things that are in an alienating way then have some staff members who just like aren’t excited about it at all and then they come to our customers who also are split kind of down the middle where they’re excited about the changes, noticing the difference. Then I have some who, they feel like it’s not really adding anything, or they miss the more engaging way that the previous owners were in the shop.

So, I guess my question is how do you deal with that tension between your staff and some of them being excited about the changes and then some of them kind of feeling like it’s just more work and then yeah, like that’s a lot of them just feel like you’ve just made it more work for me. They’re not necessarily excited about the product. So, how do you deal with that tension between your staff and your customers?

Jennifer Haare: I think we’ll go back to “team.” We’re a team. How can we get people to feel like a team despite what their personal opinions are like in the workplace and again, ultimately, your goal is to sell the coffee and so you can have both types of customers and to remember that. Again, not having to do the speeches to everyone. Do you feel like you’re struggling to get people to stop doing the speeches?

Attendee 10: Yes.

Jennifer Haare: Yeah.

Attendee 10: I think for them, I don’t know and maybe you can help me, maybe I need to communicate in a different way. I think for them; they think that’s the only way to educate them

Jennifer Haare: Totally

Attendee 10: and to not share the information feels like they’re like not doing their job. So, I guess that’s another tension.

Jennifer Haare: Yeah.

Amy Moore: I think encouraging them to ask good questions and to be curious about the customers and if they don’t already have relationships with the customers and are creating community, creating regulars to think about how they can think about interacting and turn it more into sort of relationship building and I think that way they’re going to gain information and better be able to educate the customers and then also the split between of those staff that have more interest and those that have maybe a little less interest in really digging into the product in the new way. the restructuring of things I think excitement is engaging and it’s contagious and for those of your staff that are really excited about it to encourage that. Your other staff, they’re going to see that kind of take off and it’s going to mean something to them. Even if they don’t get excited about coffee they’re going to be impacted by seeing their co-worker get excited about something and to really facilitate that and if you can bring your staff to cuppings or classes or conferences. I think encouraging that excitement is a good way to go too.

Jennifer Haare: As far as feeling like it’s more work. Yeah, maybe you’ve burdened them with like more knowledge and higher expectations, but that again, and like I think we’ve talked about this personally a little bit, but knowledge is power. I’m giving you tools and you can choose what you want. You’re like I have too many tools, I don’t want to build anything, but you can do a lot with that and giving them space to see that for themselves I think is valuable. “Hey, I’m asking you to be the best employee you can be right here. I believe in you. I know you can do it. That’s why I haven’t fired, you.” No, I’m just kidding. She knows my humor so I can do it. But I believe in you. I’m not giving you this information because I think because I’m trying to burden you I want you to be able to do a better job. I want you to see that your job has meaning, that your life has meaning, take it. But, yeah, connecting with him, but what’s the deal here and some people aren’t going to go for it, but always bringing it back to that bigger picture I think is helpful for both sides actually.

Attendee 10: I did have a second question. You mentioned signage earlier and so the previous owners were all about like really giving information as far as the farm or where it came from but more like Amy was saying in the shaming way of like don’t you realize they don’t have any like livelihood and that kind of stuff. So, how would you say to make it simple and clean? What would the key points of information be maybe like on a bag of coffee or even just in the shop to engage your customer?

Amy Moore: I think focusing on what feels authentic to you is really important. That triggered something for you because it doesn’t feel real, it doesn’t feel authentic. So, really spending some time maybe with your staff as well. Maybe that’s a good way to get them involved thinking about what do you value and what are three things that you want your consumers to come away with. What are a couple of things that you want them to know and sort of distilling that information down because it sounds like, in this case it needs to maybe be a little bit more simplified and intentional? In some cases, it’s something that you need more of, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the direction. So, really kind of focusing in and seeing if you can narrow it down.

Jennifer Haare: I used to love how Intelligentsia would have little handwritten notes about like what it was like in that company when they saw us there and it doesn’t have to be what life on the farm is like if that feels weird. But just like what is it like in that country? How can you kind of see that this is like not from here and then, yeah, okay. That’s it.

Attendee 10: Thank you.

1:12:45 How long are your training programs and how many people finish the program vs those you lose?

Attendee 11: Hi. You guys did a great job, very proud. My name is Ivana. I’m actually from investment firm and we are the K-Cups guys. We actually did an amazing job. We partner with company; we do specialty coffee. After a couple weeks, they explained all the stuff to me. You educate extremely well. My question is this for you guys. How long is your training program and what’s the turn around? How many people actually finish the program and how many people you lose?

Jennifer Haare: Yeah. So, I said six months earlier, it can be done as quickly as three months depending on a lot of things, but I would say with that if we stick to three months. If we’re training every week, we can make it. People that finish the training program tend to stay. In our staff is like the only thing I can reference right now, but the people that finish get fully certified they tend to stay over a year. I would say to two to three years on average or, no, about two years for people to finish our training program is what we can expect and then people that don’t make it usually leave before they get to milk training. So, the training program is good for two reasons because you’re getting them to do exactly what you need them to do, but you can also see who’s not going to make. Who can’t keep up with, doesn’t like this pace, it’s not for them which I think is valuable because then you can, before you get in too deep.

Amy Moore: I think that’s all we have for time. Thank you guys so much for sticking with us.

Jennifer Haare: Yeah. This is a pleasure. Thank you so much.

1:14:30 Outro

James Harper: That was Amy Moore and Jennifer Haare at Expo in 2018. Remember to check our show notes for a full transcript of this lecture and visit coffeeexpo.org for tickets to this year’s event.

This has been an episode of the SCA Podcast. Thank you for joining us!

Listen, SCA PodcastSCA StaffApril 1, 2019

#45: Education in Specialty Coffee: Engaging or Alienating? | Jennifer Haare & Amy Moore | 2018 Expo Lectures

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